FISTF

[Hönkki]

Naurettavaa

Se on sitä. FISTF:n sääntöjen (Handbook) mukaan vaalit vaan tulisi pitää. Nykyinen hallitus on ehdottanut uusia sääntöjä, mutta kun kongressi ei ole niitä hyväksynyt, niin vanhat säännöt ovat voimassa.

[Hönkki]

Saksan liitto haastaa FISTF:n oikeuteen, jos vaalit perutaan.

[Hönkki]

Tässä tätä kirjeenvaihtoa. Ensin FISTF:n nykyisen hallituksen ilmoitus vaalien perumisesta, sitten Saksan liiton meili ja lopuksi Zingan muotoilema meili, jossa tuetaan Saksan vaatimusta.

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circular #34

Dear Friends,

FISTF Congress

As from last January, we committed ourselves to work for the benefit of table football community. We
promised you this and we started a number of dirty works in order to resolve a number of issues for
which we did not even receive any handover. For example, at FISTF today we don't know what
agreements there were in the past years. Although we insisted with this, the only answers we had were
only a clear example of non-collaboration. We ended up in a situation where the donkey accuses his
tail.
With full responsibility and after looking for legal advice we are seeking that FISTF deserves a better
Congress and Election process than simply a two hour meeting, where the concentration would be
more on the draws then on discussing important issues for the future of our sport. Today, there are
people from this board that wish to stop working for various reasons. These places will be co-opted with
candidates that submitted their nomination for the elections.
We need to give stability to this Federation. Our handbook and statutes does not go together. There are
some points which contradict each other. So, we started a process in order to have a clear statute and
a compatible with the statute itself. We need to enter into details in a number of issues in the handbook.
There are a number of circumstances where we are not covering enough the national federation. The
Federations must have a more powerful role in the future of FISTF. So, we started already contacts with
persons close to FISTF and others who can technically help this Federation in order to produce a
statutes and handbook that will make FISTF proud.
We need the contribution of everyone. I must say that when we sent the statutes the only reactions that
we had were from two countries.
So, we need to take the charge in hand and offer our commitment to FISTF. We are cancelling
elections with full responsibility, as we need more time to give to FISTF what we promised. We are
inviting anyone who is willing to work hard for FISTF, but has no personal agendas or personal conflicts
with anyone to come over and help. We are ready to work with anyone as we showed immediately in
January, although unfortunately some reactions were not encouraging at all.
The Congress in Germany will be more a meeting to break the ice for a future direction. We need to
ensure that all associations' members are real members. An agenda will be issued soon. There will be
some rules of how this meeting will run and I hope that every one of you comes prepared to list the
points necessary according to this country which we must tackle.

I saw a number of valid candidatures for the elections. From these people we will be filling any places
which will opt not to continue after September. A congress will be organised, similar to the one in
January at a later date (to be announced) in order to give the opportunity to have more time face to face
to discuss and work for the future of FISTF.

Truly in Sports
Silvio Catania
FISTF President

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FISTF_19 8 10


Dear Silvio,

dear Directors,

reference is made to Circular #34 from 16th August 2010. With full respect regarding your
intentions of the letter we would like to point out our disagreement with the decision.
First of all the board of directors is the executive body of FISTF. The legislative body is the
congress which consists of representatives of all member nations (currently 19 nations
with member status). The most powerful decision of the congress is the election of the
board. With your decision you cut the power of the nations (legislative body of FISTF)
which can not be accepted and has to be counted as a breach of the current statutes.
Beside this it is against all democratic principles.
In the minutes of the Extraordinary Congress held in January 2010 in Frankfurt/Germany
is clearly stated that new elections will take place at the coming congress in
Rain/Germany. Unfortunately a cancellation of the election process means a clear breach
of promises.
In the statutes is defined that a congress shall take place every four years. The last
congress was in June 2006 in Dortmund. The next congress was planned for September
2010 in Rain. Even though an Extraordinary Congress took place (with no clear
regulations in the statutes about elections and procedures) in January 2010 it cannot be
counted as the start of a new term of office of the BoD. I am pretty sure that European
Law (or even French Law) will state this fact. Therefore the announcement of January
2010 to hold new elections in September 2010 was the right way to heal possible
illegalities.
The reasons for cancelling the elections at the coming congress are not based on facts.
For us it is still not comprehensible which reasons are as heavy to cancel elections.

For these reasons we are demanding the following:
1. Regular elections at the congress in Rain
2. Legal statement which approves your approach to cancel elections
3. Clear commitment of the Board of Directors to keep the current statutes
4. Even if the cancellation of the elections would be right, we are awaiting a full
financial report as from January 2010 at the congress
We hope you understand that the Federations are FISTF. As a full member of FISTF it is
our right and duty to ask for the above mentioned points. You have time until 25th August
2010 to answer. Otherwise we reserve our right to consult a lawyer and to sue out a
provisional measure against your decision. As you already mentioned in your letter you
take the full responsibility.
Irrespective the before mentioned arguments it would have been your duty not to cancel
the elections but to postpone them with a new election date. Cancelling the elections
without a new date leaves with a bad smack.

Yours in sport
Janus Gersie
President DSTFB


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Subu ry:n kirje


Dear FISTF Board of Directors and Presidents of Member Nations,

We refer to the FISTF Circular #34 (16th August 2010) and the letter of DSTFB (19th August 2010).

The Table Football Association of Finland is saddened to follow the current development of our loved Table Football community. Now, it is time for a new start. We, the Member Nations, should gather together and discuss which is the road we want to follow. Are we driving towards a disintegration or are we seeking a solution to this recent mess?

This, however, will require following the rules and statues. We, as a Member Nation, strongly support the demands made by DSTFB in their open letter. We should have a regular election in Rain. We should gather a new Board of Directors, that is willing to unite the Table Football community!



With best regards,
The Table Football Association of Finland


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Tuleva FISTF-kogressi saattaa ylittää kiihkeydessään jopa syyskuun Hesu-kokouksen.

[Epis]

Tuleva FISTF-kogressi saattaa ylittää kiihkeydessään jopa syyskuun Hesu-kokouksen.

Varsinkin jos/kun tällä kertaa Hesu:n asiat hoidetaan kasvotusten ja äänestämällä eikä forumilla pikkutuntien monologeina. Tietysti jälkipelin määrä voi olla taas parinkymmenen sivun mittainen bittimössö

Olisihan tuo FISTF:n kokouskin ihan hauska kokemus, jos vaan pystyisi ja jaksaisi lähteä paikalle. Onko kukaan hallituksesta menossa?

[Hönkki]

Onko kukaan hallituksesta menossa?

Olen menossa. Viimeisin tieto on, että joka maasta saa osallistua 2 henkilöä. Tietääkseni ei tarvitse olla hallituksen jäsen saadakseen osallistua.

[Hönkki]

Tässä vielä ihmeteltäväksi Catanian kirje

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CIRCULAR0034 (i) 18th August 2010

Dear Friends,

FISTF Congress
Why the elections are postponed?

Elections were postponed. We promised that we need to give a clear vision to this Federation. The
mission to reach our goals is not easy and during our pace of work we found a number of difficulties
and a number of mishaps which must be clearly addressed.

Membership

By asking a National Federation to pay €100 per year does not mean that a nation is a member. We
need to have well organised National Federations and more over, at least they must have some
knowledge of organisation of table football. For us, the National Federation is the most important
contact, as these will then spread our intentions, communications and development proposals to the
clubs and eventually to the players.
This Board was astonished to learn that on July 16th, 2010 we received an email from the INDIAN
representative asking us how India can become an FISTF member. We were astonished, because
during the congress held in Rotterdam (2009) India were approved members of the FISTF although in
the minutes of the same congress there is no reference to that. This is a bit funny, that somebody who
is recognised is asking for recognition. Proofing this, during the extra ordinary congress in January
2010, India voted in the elections held there.
Any trial of contacting them, from January 2010 till July 16th 2010 was in vain. We had no response
from them, no signal of any national competition held, nothing. On their email of last month, they
supplied FISTF with statutes that leave much to think about. The association, according to the
certifications sent to us, was recognised in India in January 2010, so our question is easy and simple:
How come in September 2009 they were accepted as a National Federation if even their state was not
informed of such society?
Adding insult to injury, the Indian friends supplied statutes which clearly show that this federation was
organised for the simple reason to say that we developed table football in India. In paragraph 9 of these
statutes we find the following:
To start various kinds of training courses like fitness, aerobics, musical courses, self defence
training, technical and non-technical courses, judges, referee courses on international and
national level.

We conclude that for sure this statutes was only made up by a simply FIND & REPLACE from
something else and the word TABLE FOOTBALL was eventually inserted.
Our aim of being a member nation is far from this. We cannot continue hiding ourselves at the back of
our fingers by simply stating that we have a member nation. All member nations must have obligations
towards the FISTF. Some of these are:
1. Statutes that reflect the sport of table football.
2. Proven record of affiliated players.
3. Proven record of affiliated clubs.
4. Organisation of a national championship on individual and club basis.
5. Promotional activity of table football among youths.
6. Promotional material such as website, flyers, etc during international tournament held.
7. Provide an insurance cover to all the activities held in their country.
We are totally in favour of development, but we cannot accept that National Federations don't get up on
their feet and do their part too. We experienced, and still not solved, a member nation which did not pay
its membership for four consecutive years. We offered an option to pay this amount of money in parts,
but we had no reply at all. This is what we cannot accept.
Unfortunately this was the way things were handled. It's not how many nations we have on our books,
but how much activity we are organising in the RIGHT WAY to attract new individuals to come over and
join our sport. We want good development and on the right track. We need to learn from each other for
sure, every nation has experienced at some time the problem of drop down in members but some
managed to get out of it, others no. We need to handle this with care. We cannot just get a contact and
put him/her as an association.

Accounts

Without putting any dull situation on a personal basis, we cannot stop from stating what happened with
accounts in the past four years. Unfortunately a number of transactions are not backed up by any mean
of receipts. This was the way FISTF was running.
The job was being done by Mr Fred Vulpes, who to my knowledge he tried to make the best out of this
department. Unfortunately there was no guidance to him. When we asked questions to the former
president about issues in the accounts all the blaming went towards the Finance Director, who
sometimes is difficult to understand you because English is not his alternative language. Obviously I
cannot blame Fred Vulpes from not being able to talk in English but I have to blame a system which the
President had the right to guard and help his colleague to operate it.
In the past four years, there was a hell in the grants for the big competitions. We received no handover
of receipts of who was paid and not. We only know for example that for an incident which happened in
Europa Cup 2009 the President decided to give to the organiser (the President himself) an extra €250
for accidental mishap at the toilets. Moreover, there are no receipts that this money was received.

For this World Cup, the one in Germany, a decision was made to give a grant of €1500 instead of
€1000. A decision, unfortunately made by three people, two of which Germans who ethically had not to
vote on this issue. These were stated at the Congress in January.
Today, after a number of years FISTF has an account on its name. We were blamed at the beginning of
our legislation that countries will not pay to a pay-pal account entitled to a person. Fair enough and I
agree that FISTF should carry an account on its name. But I question the same persons how payment
was affected before March 2010 when both bank account and pay-pal account were on behalf of an
individual. I must say this is inconsistence and from day one of our legislation we started handling a
situation of people who does not want to collaborate with the new Board.

World Cup

Ethically, we honoured a decision taken by the board, once again with two Germans voting for their
country on the decision of the World Cup. Today, we are at the eve of the World Cup in Rain. A lot have
been said about this World Cup, but I was the first one to say the decision made will be honoured. We
also offered a helping hand to the organisers who still, some of them continue to look at this Board as
the biggest enemy.
One of our board members went to Germany to verify a number of issues aroused by speculative
people who only want to put disgrace to this sport. Laurent Garnier witnessed himself the preparations
in May for the World Cup. He made his suggestions and the German organisers promised collaboration.
Here I must personally add that the reactions from the German people were good and positive to this
meeting. Obviously we learned that SOME of the organising team were not happy with this board, but
that was something expected.

Handover

In any democracy, when someone closes his term at an office passes over the work done in his period
to the future ruling body. Something which did not happen. When I asked personally for some
information I did not receive any from this information. We knew that FISTF had some contracts which
give right to the FISTF and also oblige with some obligations. We are still missing agreements like:
1. Agreement with a consultive lawyer (we only have it through him)
2. Agreements made with producers
3. Agreements made on Websites, etc.
These are of vital importance. We never had even a copy of any correspondence shared or sent to
anybody. I can promise that any letter issued officially from FISTF is now saved and a copy can be
easily given. A database of correspondences exists and in the day this board will stop ruling FISTF all
this material will be handed on there and then.
When we asked for information, we received answers full of abuse. The same abuse a number of
nations had to face in the past.

Promises

We made a number of promises in January 2010. One of these is the re-structure of FISTF. We
promised that we wanted to work with everyone and the result was very simple. The people who love
table football and who have to their heart this sport were given the opportunity to continue their good
work for table football community. But instead they preferred to start a fresh page relationship with

FISTF. I personally offered to the former President to continue with his good work about results. The
answer was that he wanted to be paid to offer a service in an email dated 28th January 2010.
I was the first one to stand up after the result of the election and say thank you for your work to the old
board, especially to the former President. His reaction was simply to accuse me and the rest as 'idiots'.
We still believe that this person, if he wants to can be a very good asset to FISTF. But the personal
issues are dominating the whole scenario and not leaving the opportunity to think freely, act as an adult
and give the right helping hand to FISTF.

Congress

People told me, as I don't follow any kind of forums that some people are astonished why the congress
is postponed.
First of all, in November/December 2009 when the seven nations asked for a meeting they never asked
for an election or a congress. The official reply to the promise made in Rotterdam 2009 to make a
meeting for the countries (minuted also in the Rotterdam minutes) was simply that if we wanted a
meeting we should call it an Extraordinary Congress, because our statutes permits only that. As if, the
statutes states that the Board with the consent of the member nations cannot meet for a two-day
meeting and brush ideas and perform workshops for the benefit of table football.
The only way to meet was simple. We had to accept this offer and then the FAMOUS MEETING had
been recognised as EXTRAORDINARY CONGRESS. Adding insult to injury, this meant also for the
previous Board that since there is a CONGRESS than there should be the elections as this congress in
January was to replace that one in September 2010. We had no other alternative, we accepted this and
went to a bloc-vote which was proposed by the former board and eventually we were criticised about it.
The Congress was held in January and YES we promised elections in 9/10 months time. Today we
clearly see that the biggest achievement of the Congress in January was the fact that for 2-days a
number of countries were holding discussions about the future of table football. For sure not everything
was perfect and nor it will be ever. But we have at least the honour to say that we managed to get 14
representatives to discuss table football face-to-face.
Our main intention is to give this federation a boost. We need to re-structure a number of issues. For
this we need the commitment of people who really want to work. We are saying we are ready to work
with anyone, interested in avoiding personal conflicts, avoiding personal issues and work for table
football.
So this meeting in Germany will be a show off people who really want to work. Someone told me, that
postponing elections we might risk having 6-7 people sitting for this meeting. That means that at least
one out of three of our member nations (although this is to be proved that we have 18), is interested in
helping and working for table football.
Decisions will keep on being difficult for some countries. Some decisions cannot please everyone. We
know that any decision taken will have people supporting it and others no. We are open to constructive
ideas and not only issues and declarations and abuses from people (the same 6/7 people) who
continuously want to black mail people trying to do something.
For sure this board was not perfect. For sure this board had its ups and downs. These will remain even
after the 3rd September. But at least this board has a vision to reach. We want to give the best

opportunities to the table football community. We want to re-direct the structure of FISTF. Statutes,
handbook, forms, need an upgrade. We already implemented some ideas. We know that some of our
ideas were halted and squeezed in many discussions on forums. I invite the people who go to forums to
come over and discuss matters face to face.
We decided upon one important rule, last January. We issued invoices with 30 days credit for every
tournament, but just because some of the people who wish the best to their sport made everything
possible not to collaborate on this. This was one of the rules that do not make sense. Any tournament is
paid at the end of the year. We changed that, very few collaborated on this.

Communication

We must say that maybe we lacked in communications. We can also state that our vision is primarily to
address national federations and then obviously it's the federation who needs to continue the spread of
news towards clubs and individuals.
I am not the person who goes round the bush. In communication probably we were not 100% efficient.
The blame of this I take it personally as I feel that this is the way a board should work. I don't mind
taking the blame on anything. I just want that what we are missing now we manage to get it with the
proper help and input of work from people who ARE REALLY AND GENUINALLY interested in offering
a service towards table football.
The forum was closed for the simple reason that we cannot tolerate abuses. It was simply the arena for
the gladiators of computers to attack and try to destroy people who are not that much computer lovers.
The methods of communications today are efficient and easy to use, but they become a big enemy is
misappropriated in their function. Same here I invite anyone who has ideas to come over and discuss.
We now invested in a newsletter which too many people it was a big achievement. For sure, we cannot
please all the people but at least we managed to issue something which is visually more attractive. We
improved on what there was and this is our idea that we want to build on the good and re-structure what
is totally not functioning.

Sport Circuit

We are reading rumours of people, whose sole interest is again to throw mud at any person in front of
them that last week end major at Mattersburg was probably the last one. This is another LIE which
certain people want to spread to continue on their mission to put dullness on this board. These
speculations were also issued in February and I remember Olivier Pere' from Belgium coming over with
almost tears in his eyes because he learned that this Board wanted to stop MONS.
I was the first to guarantee that Mons was going to be again on the calendar for the coming season
(2010-2011). Same went for all the other majors. Bologna, Amsterdam and Mattersburg are already
confirmed for next season.
As for other competitions, we are also receiving emails from players and kids asking whether we are
going to stop Futures, Challengers and Satellites during the coming season. I am astonished when I
read such lines sent to me through email from forums. My astonishment comes when I see the person
posting these comments. For somebody from Belgium is very easy to post issues about futures and
challengers and satellites.

The same person posting these issues was granted a number of same tournaments after an email by
Olivier Pere. So, how come a Belgian Vice-President can continue to declare things which are not true
and pretend that nobody respond to his dull statements?
Yes, in the next future we need to discuss the future of the sport circuit. We need to study in detail why
and how some tournaments are being organised? We need to see how we can improve our big events,
especially the majors! We are ready to work hand in hand with everyone to develop more ideas, such
as those developed during these months thanks also to Stefano De Francesco like the Champions
League and Europa League.
I must conclude that any comments are more than welcomed. I personally answer any correspondence
and this can be also witnessed by people who are presently writing on forums that this board does not
communicate. I took the charge of addressing all correspondences in order to be sure that anyone is
handled with all fairness.

North & South

We have been accused of being too in favour of the south. This is another lie. Our decisions were
based on the applications submitted. But before that I wish to tell everynation that this board, the first
thing to do was to invite Belgium (a nation that if we consider only one person from there we should
consider it as an enemy) to organise the Europa League. This was done in May 2010 after the Belgian
President have expressed himself with me that they wish a big tournament in Brussels. I offered the
Europa League 2010 prior to the application from Rome. For the Belgian Federation this was not
possible to organise. Who can call this board that it's too for the south?

Board

Finally I wish to thank all colleagues from January till now. As in any other board, there will be a number
of ideas and discussions. I can assure and witness that all the discussions carried out during these
months, were carried out with all fairness. There were no abuses on any country or any national
representative. Discussions were always held in the right way. Yes, as in any other board there were
issues which got us tempered sometimes.
There were also issues which ended up being an enigma, but the input was 100% from everyone. I
would like to thank all those who participated and contributed in these months and wish them luck
because there are people that from 1st September they are opting to work somewhere else in the table
football community. I can assure everyone that these people will still be acknowledged for any idea,
comment or critics they will pass on to FISTF.
Their input, from their experiences will be still appreciated. The board after this World Cup will include
new faces. I hope there will be sitting with us people who genuinely want to work for this community as
we had in these past months. I suggest to any federation that if we need to make this Federation a
boost we need only to base our intentions on three main issues:
1. Vision
2. Commitment to be part of a mission
3. No hidden agendas and personal conflicts
3rd September 2010

The German Association organised for us a space to discuss. The meeting will be an informal one. I
ask all federations to nominate a person who will be representing them in this meeting. Two persons
per country are going to be accepted in this meeting. Accreditations for this meeting and approvals will
be issued as soon as the Board receives the nominations. Forms will be supplied to member nations.

Truly in Sports
Silvio Catania
FISTF President

[Rossonero]

Homma karkaa käsistä. Catania (hallitus?) langetti Coppenollelle 2 vuoden toimintakiellon (ei saa pelatakaan), kun tämä oli facebookissa viitannut FISTF:n hallituksen olevan suorastaan mafia.

No, nämähän tietenkin kumoutuvat, kun syyskuun alussa on kokous.

Italiassakin moni ihmetteli haloota mafia-sanan käytöstä. Pitävät sitä mauttomana, mutta on sitä sielläkin käytetty.

[Hönkki]

1)   Minusta vaalit tulisi pitää. Coppenolle kelpaa noista kahdesta presidentiksi. Sivumennen sanoen mieluiten kannattaisin Janus Gersietä. Minusta hän ei ole mokannut mitään ja on ollut kannanotoissaan järkevä. Ei vaan valitettavasti ole ehdokkaana.

2)   Intialla ei tulisi olla äänioikeutta. Siinä Catania on oikeassa. Minusta se ei ole demokratiaa että yhden ihmisen liitto on yhtä vahva kuin tuhannen ihmisen liitto.

3)   Jos vaaleja ei jostain syystä pidetä Rainissa, niin sitten uusi Extra Ordinary Congress jossa valitaan uusi hallitus.

4)   Rainissa on jonkinlainen kokous tiedossa (vaaleilla tai ilman). Joka maasta hyväksytään mukaan sittenkin vain yksi henkilö. Minusta hallituksen jäsenillä on "etuajo-oikeus" niin halutessaan, mutta henkilökohtaisesti en ole toistaiseksi hirveän innostunut. Menen jos kukaan muu ei mene. Tieto osallistuvasta henkilöstä pitää ilmoittaa 1.9.2010 mennessä.

[Hönkki]

Korjaus: kongressiin saa edelleen mennä 2 henkeä per maa. Tuo yksi henki per maa koski FISTF:n työryhmää, joka aloittaa työskentelyn kongressin jälkeen.

[Hönkki]

2)   Intialla ei tulisi olla äänioikeutta. Siinä Catania on oikeassa. Minusta se ei ole demokratiaa että yhden ihmisen liitto on yhtä vahva kuin tuhannen ihmisen liitto.

Selvennän/korjaan vielä tätäkin. Jäsenten määrän ei tule olla kriteeri äänioikeudelle, mutta liiton toimivuuden tulisi olla. Pitää olla jotain vaatimuksia sille, että maalla on äänioikeus. Esim. pelaajia FISTF:n rankingissa tai edes muutamia järjestettyjä kansallisia turnauksia, eli jotain mikä osoittaisi, että kyseisessä maassa on oikeasti subutoimintaa ja jotain ymmärrystä siitä mikä on hyväksi lajille.

Tietääkseni Intiassa ei olla tällä tasolla, mutta minähän en tietenkään tiedä kaikkea.

Kongressiin saa siis osallistua 2 henkeä per maa. Minä ja Vesa mennään.

[Epis]

Voitteko yrittää saada videoitua kiihkeimpiä tilanteita? Tällä siis tarkoitan FISTF-kokousta, muut jutut saatte sitten hoitaa ihan oman näkemyksenne mukaan 8)

[Rossonero]

Voitteko yrittää saada videoitua kiihkeimpiä tilanteita?

Yritetään. Pitänee asentaa käsilaukkuun salakamera.

Saa nähdä pääsemmekö Italian (ja monen muunkin) parlamentin tasolle ja käsirysyyn asti.

[Purtsi]

Voitteko yrittää saada videoitua kiihkeimpiä tilanteita?

Yritetään. Pitänee asentaa käsilaukkuun salakamera.

Tämmöset molemmille päähän:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/gearshop/predator-i-kam-xtreme-3.0-hunting-video-glasses.html

[Hönkki]

mä ehdotan niille ryhmähalia

[Hönkki]

Mitäköhän tämäkin loppujen lopuksi tarkoittaa ?

May I inform you that by this correspondence you are entitled to 1 person/s to take part in the meeting
on September 3rd 2010 as representative of:

person 1: Kari Hakkarainen
person 2: Vesa Kouvonkorpi

Sitäkö että saamme valita noista kahdesta henkilöstä yhden joka saa osallistua kokoukseen ? Onkohan siellä sitten joku ylimääräinen kokous kongressin lisäksi ? Ymmärsin alunperin että saamme 2 osanottajaa kongressiin, joka on ainoa kokous. Ehkä tämä liittyy siihen, että Catania ei halua mitään kongressia, vaan pelkän tavallisen kokouksen.

Viime päivinä on kyllä tullut mielenkiintoisen paljon postia FISTF:n suunnasta ja tilanne vaikuttaa erittäin sekavalta. Siis voi helvete mitä touhua.