Viestit

About Sunday, we can agree it on Saturday in the venue, depending on the number of the players who will come, and their wishes.
9-3 is 6 hours, so we have plenty of time even for a tournament (play against each other 1 game) if we do not use refs.

But we can decide it on Saturday. For example players might prefer less games but with a ref.

4 tables is ok I agree. You should know by Friday night if there is a way to have 13 players or more. If we have >=13 then 5 tables might help to proceed faster. (3 refs + 2 tables without)

In the draw there are some constraints which should be followed anyway, and since we are few players, I also think that it is better to do it there so the foreigners will also know it.

For example if possible not 2 from the same team or country in the same group. So the 2 English should not be in the same group.
The Finns should try to be 2+3 (at this point you are 5) not 1+4, or 0+5.

I also agree about playing the open group phase first. At least  Semi finals and finals SHOULD have refs, and possible the last round in the group phase if it is not clear who will go to the semifinals.

My proposal for the tournaments (Saturday - Sunday)

SATURDAY
----------

1) Kari it is not necessary to finalize the participants list today or tomorrow.
If there is a chance for someone to come in the last moment, then he should be able to play.

2) I was in Denmark the previous weekend and we did the draw and the participants on Saturday the morning.
I we should do the same also. We are so few players so it is not gonna take long, just a few minutes, in case someone will decide to come
on Friday night.

3) If we are 10 or 11 then we should just have 2 groups of 5 (or one group of 6).
More than 12 then 3 groups.

On Saturday we are 6 veterans so we can have 2 groups of 3. And then semifinal and final

4) In order to save time, we can have some matches without referees. (In Denmark we had all our games without, except the finals)
Tilgner said a good idea, if there is no ref.
We can flip a coin, in the case that both opponents believe that they are right. The coin will be the "ref".

If we are 10 and we have 4 tables, then 2 matches can be with a ref and 2 without. This way we can proceed much faster with the games.


SUNDAY
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We can also play without refs (I guess we are going to be only 6-7) in order to play many games ->
REMEMBER that this is what they want (the people who travel here): to play as much as possible.

So if we have the venue until 4pm, we can easily have a tournament-championship of 6-7 players.
And then a final. Just Open this time, even though most of the players are veterans.

We need at least 6 players in order for FISTF to award points for the tournament.

PS Hopefully in the last moment some players will decide to come. I find it very embarrassing that the foreigners are more than the local players (and I count myself as a local!)

My proposal for the tournaments (Saturday - Sunday)

SATURDAY
----------

1) Kari it is not necessary to finalize the participants list today or tomorrow.
If there is a chance for someone to come in the last moment, then he should be able to play.

2) I was in Denmark the previous weekend and we did the draw and the participants on Saturday the morning.
I we should do the same also. We are so few players so it is not gonna take long, just a few minutes, in case someone will decide to come
on Friday night.

3) If we are 10 or 11 then we should just have 2 groups of 5 (or one group of 6).
More than 12 then 3 groups.

On Saturday we are 6 veterans so we can have 2 groups of 3. And then semifinal and final

4) In order to save time, we can have some matches without referees. (In Denmark we had all our games without, except the finals)
Tilgner said a good idea, if there is no ref.
We can flip a coin, in the case that both opponents believe that they are right. The coin will be the "ref".

If we are 10 and we have 4 tables, then 2 matches can be with a ref and 2 without. This way we can proceed much faster with the games.


SUNDAY
--------

We can also play without refs (I guess we are going to be only 6-7) in order to play many games ->
REMEMBER that this is what they want (the people who travel here): to play as much as possible.

So if we have the venue until 4pm, we can easily have a tournament-championship of 6-7 players.
And then a final. Just Open this time, even though most of the players are veterans.

We need at least 6 players in order for FISTF to award points for the tournament.

PS Hopefully in the last moment some players will decide to come. I find it very embarrassing that the foreigners are more than the local players (and I count myself as a local!)

Unfortunately no other participants from Greece this year.

There is still chance that both my Greek teammates will come.
There is a cheap flight out of nowhere, but it is for a whole week (they will stay at my place) and I might know in a few days
and will let you know asap.

Very good news about the foreigners so far. Let's see if any Austrians will come.
Is Brian also veteran? I do not know him. The other 2 will play in both categories.

Kari, I think for Open category we should have at least medals for the finalist and semifinalists.

PS Nigeria has a huge subbuteo tradition

Robert Green said he will also come.

There is also a chance for 2 greek players to come (teammates and friends of mine), if  they find a cheap ticket.

Hi guys,

I have created today an event in facebook for the Helsinki Open 2015 and also added it in the FISTF group.
Vittorio de Pascale (was here last year) already said that he will come.
I add this poll because I think it is good to have an idea of how many players will participate from Finland each day, in order for the
organizers (i.e. Zinga on Saturday?) to have an estimate.

The sudden death in the Open team category

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THucYcBYZjw&list=UUeXX8bDI1Ia9REZ5CkfnUnw

[Heinz Eder]

I add also here some comments from FB in order to give you an idea of how the game will be played (read this part after reading the modifications pdf file)

Heinz Eder as it seems the only important skills are now to hit the ball the way not to touch 2 defending figures after playing the ball!

Καπα καπα I think that the only important skill now is to flick the ball towards to moving defender

George Papadopoulos I think the only important skill now is to force ALL the time flick ins!!! (see later)

The rules have been voted. It's over. From now on it's time to sit back and enjoy the chaos that they will create. The game changes drastically, there has not been any real testing, some will benefit a lot from these changes (at least in the beginning).

Forced flick in (which was considered "not so nice" in old subbuteo) will become a huge weapon for the attacker since he can AT THE SAME TIME:
a) advance a player (the one that forces the flick in)
b) smash (since he is not punished by the rules)
c) do the flick in without moves so the defender is helpless
d) use flick in to pass and shoot with a moving ball (this will be for sure the trademark of the new rules!!!)

BTW case (d) is sooooooooo realistic and common in real football! So many goal from a throw in!!!
From now on almost every flick in in the defenders half can be used as a pass+shoot a moving ball (why do it only with a corner?)
Everyone will start forcing ALL the time flick ins!!!

The defender will probably also in such cases try to foul on purpose (he has nothing to lose) and the game will certainly become much ... fairer!

About the current smashing rule (nothing to do with smashing!) we have said it already. Just a joke, will create so many difficult cases for the ref. Already in the WC there were players saying that they will not punish cases that they DO NOT consider smashing! Nice rule!

I wish to all the supporters of these untested rules ALL the difficult cases whenever they are refereeing!

...... (and the following was my last post. I add these in order to give you an idea of my persective)
George Papadopoulos I have written many things in this post before the voting using arguments, logic, video examples etc. I have not received any answer (surprise!!!!). It's good to see that world class players like Vasco and Koutis have the same opinion as me about the problems that will be created.
Even though the voting was democratic, the process was not. And that's a fact. Giving rules 2 weeks before the voting is a joke. By the way I am curious about the 15-4 result, since the greek representatives said 8-6. Anyway at this point this is irrelevant, just shows that everything was planned ahead. Inform as less as possible in order to get the result that you want!! Someone already said that some did not even know what they voted for! Nice! And they affect the whole community.

Another fact: The greek association voted NO. They did not support the GREEK sport director's project!!! Probably one of the very few associations which really acted responsibly (not one man taking decisions like in many other cases) understanding that these rules are not clear! Simple as that.

There is so much added complexity. Just idiotic.
You expect newcomers and young children to be able to ref? Even the seasoned players have difficult time with the existing ones, and now we add rules to count for the spare keeper, to check extra things when ball is moving (easy....)

I have said it many times. The main aim should be to help the REFEREE!
Because he is also a player! And these rules (the important ones) are a step towards the opposite direction.
Moreover the new additions favor "forcing".
Forcing flick in and free-flick will be the trademark of the game. Imagine how many fights we are going to have.
Even the corrent addition (rule n1) still, leaves the decision to the ref!!!


--------------------------------
I hope I helped to give you a fist idea about the new rules. I also have just scratch the surface, we can only undestand them better the more we play and use them!

Kari asked me to comment on the WC and the new rules. So here it is  

My presence there was not good. I guess I was quite nervous. At least I managed to go through to the next round with a goal 10 secs before the end. Then I played against Mattiangeli, lost 2-0. He scored 1 goal in the first half and the second 2 mins before the end. He actually won the tournament, and he conceded only one goal! Not very impressive player but amazing defender.
In the team I played only one half.

In open category the final was quite a surprise. Flores was late, lost a match on paper then draw so he did not even qualify from the group stage.

Both team  finals were very tense, and were decided in sudden death! Mattiangeli scored the winning goal and Italy beat Belgium in the veterans (did not watch it, only bits).
But I watched the whole Open final which was probably the best WC final!!!
Amazing! Almost certain that Spain would win, and then Italy draw with Nastazi few secs before the end, because of an amazing mistake/miss by Noguera (he won the Open individual 3rd Spanish in a row) and then Colangelo (an 18-19 year old, the next best thing!) scored against Flores in sudden death!
I can not write more details, but what I described was just a 5% of the match. Amazing!!!! Pity that there was no live streaming.

-------------------------------------------

Now about the rules!
OK. First I have one question.  DID they ask Finland to vote by mail? I am really curious about this.

In my opinion the whole thing was a farce and I really think that they manipulated the community. The rules HAD to be voted as a SET (not vote each rule). They sent the rules in August few weeks before the WC.
Untested and I am sure that there is an agenda. I think most associations did not even understand or read the rules. Basically 3-4 are the important (actually huge) changes, and then they added some clarifications to other cases in order to camouflage what they really wanted to impose on the community.
OK I know that I might sound crazy, but there was a very long discussion in FB page of FISTF. I can say more details in person.
My own prediction is that this year there is going to be a chaos and many many fights because of these rules.

This is the file with the modifications (rules 1-5 are the big changes, 3 is an absolute joke, will discuss the rest also in person )
SO READ THIS FIRST

http://fistf.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/FISTF-Sports-Rules-Update-Project-Modifications.pdf

And this is the new rulebook including all the new changes, with pictures
http://fistf.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/FISTF-Rules-V.-5.0.pdf

The following was my fist comment in FISTF page on the set of rules
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9stmvzxQonxUmRINnI4S1ZQWWc/edit?usp=sharing

And actually I have even made some videos (using my new table :-) ) in order to show how stupid rule 3 is. Check them if you want and read the comments on YouTube
1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boT9UUqPN48
2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH-Tn8RJDhA

All these before the voting.
Anyway, now the game will change drastically so it is useful to adapt asap (although I think that after a year we might change back if there are really many problems, fights etc)

It would be good to arrange a few friendly matchs in order to start using the new rules AS WELL AS EXCHANGE IDEAS or discuss questions etc.., because that's the only way to discover possible problems, as well as possible "solutions" or tricks that can be used.

PS By the way the next 3 WC will be in Italy
Also the FB FISTF page has a discussion with 800+ posts about the new rules.

Ok guys I have to write this in english, hopefully after some years it will be in crap finnish  

First I have to thank (in order) Kari, Teemu and Pasi

Kari and Teemu for picking us from my home (Kari returned us as well on sunday) and Pasi for the amazing video he took!

I feel bad that not many finns participated, especially for not seeing Vesa.

This was my 2nd victory in Helsinki, and it seems that 16 participants is my number (in 2011 I think that it was 16 as well).
So next time try to have more than 16  

I had my new subbuteo table ready 1 week before the tournament and played even 2 games with Kari. Having a table at home has certainly been a big factor
for my performance on Saturday. I had scored amazing goals in some matches (especially against Vittorio, very nice guy) and the table at home/practice helped for sure.

There is an open invitation to anyone if you want to have friendly matches during the year.
Vesa! Shame you did not make it, you have to visit my place for sure for games!!!!
I have already said this to Kari, Teemu, Pasi and Stefano, and I write it here as well! Especially next week (beginning of September) from monday till thursday I would actually appreciate anyone visiting since I will go to the WC in 2 weeks.

My email is: georgy_papadopoulos@yahoo.co.uk
and my finnish number 0414946368

Also after watching the video: Teemu you were right about not counting the goal of Silveri (it is in the 2nd half).
A similar case happened in the greek cup last year but the ref did not see it and counted it. In the video we saw that it was a mistake. But this case was really very close, so any decision could be the correct. Me actually I thought that this was his 4th, and I was wrong!

OK if anyone wants to see the videos (thanks again Pasi!!!!! also very funny commentary!!!  )

First half (goals after 9th minute): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hid3teykHYA

Second half + ceremony: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AnNW_hFGZQ

Kari I will come to play on Monday. I do not mind if u have meeting, I can play on my own.
Is there a door bell? Can u PM me your mob number in case I get lost?

Hi Stefano, cu soon!

Hello to all!

I arrived yesterday in Finland!
Amazing food by the way in the boat (silja line)

Kari my friend will not stay here for long so he cant play in the tournament.

I certainly want to play in veterans, hopefully there will be more players than last year.
How many are we?

We found a flat in Leppavaara, so I think I am quite near the venue, I might even come by bike.
Can someone tell me where and when do you practice-play every week because I'd like to join!

Stefano, are u going to be here for the next year as well?

By the way in denmark I discussed with Lund and Alexander Haas and there is a big chance that they will come as well (possibly Emil Christiansen)
as Blummel.

Are we going to have a sauna night on Saturday?

Cheers
G.
(from now on you will see me much more oftern!)

I will stay one night there!
Really? There are players in Stockholm?